The Nairs
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I was recently pointed to this entry in Wikipedia about my caste - the Nairs. I was never told much about my caste when growing up nor did I really care that much until I saw this reference. Some of the “facts” mentioned in this entry were enlightening for me. To wit, we are supposed to have descended from the Newars of Nepal. That would explain my lifelong fascination with mountains. We were also supposed to have been eminent historians and frequent foreign travelers - again lining up perfectly with myself. But from looking at the bulging rumens of self and similarly endowed fellow Nairs in Kerala, I cringe at a comparison to the Japanese Samurai.
The caste system in India is a shameful remnant of our glorious history and is still prevalent in most parts of India despite it being forbidden by law. As the above reference to Nairs point out, we have a different sort of caste system in Kerala but I could definitely feel its effects while growing up. We had servants that I was not supposed to touch and at the same time, the priests (belonging to the Namboothiri class) were not allowed to touch us Nairs. My parents were not that strict about this but in the extended family, I could often feel the tensions when people belonging to different castes were present in the same room. I could also feel these discriminatory attitudes change significantly, over the years, as Kerala (and India) became more and more cosmopolitan. Besides, in Kerala, the cruel ramifications of the caste system were never that evident. We had (or rather, still have) other problems to worry about such as religious strife because of the significant number of Christians and Muslims present.
There are two things that I am proud of in my caste. First is the matrilineal (called marumakkathaayam in Malayalam) system in which the women are respected highly and get most of the inheritance. My mother had 3 older brothers but when my grandmother passed away, she got most of the inheritance. The above article attributes this system to the fact that a large number of Nair men died during the Chera-Chola wars and the women assumed the familial power.
Second is the martial art of Kalarippayattu. This is considered to be one of the oldest forms of martial arts in the world. I regret not having learned it when growing up. I had a couple of friends who were experts in it. The comparison with the Samurai probably come from this.
The caste system is probably one of the oldest forms of racial discriminations in the world. It’s no different from the Apartheid practised in South Africa. I would be interested to know if any of you readers have experienced or felt the effects of caste discrimination in India, Nepal or Indonesia.
Growing up in Bombay (now Mumbai) caste was not a part of day-to-day living. Indeed the egalitarian nature of lower income living in Bombay did not expose us me to caste differences. However after moving to Bangalore, a friend of mine took me on a trip to his native village where a very odd incident took place. This man, who was taking instructions from my friend, suddenly chose to stand behind a tree to continue the conversation. I later learnt that some lower caste members were not allowed to even touch the shadow of upper caste members and true to form he was avoiding our shadow.
On the bizzare scenarios that emerge from the caste system even today, do take a look at this
I mean this http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4242524.stm
In my post, I mention the phrase eminent historians to describe Nairs and said that this lines up with myself. I didn’t mean that I am an eminent historian but rather that I have a passion for history.
Spoken like a true member of the privileged class. I’ve heard many Malayalis say this, and its blatantly untrue. The caste system was thriving in all its ugliness in Kerala in centuries past. Forget untouchability, certain castes were not allowed to come into the sight of the upper castes. Their sights, sounds or even the sight of their shadow was deemed so polluting that the “offender” would be summarily whipped. So while modern Kerala society has certainly made a lot more progress than the rest of India in this regard, the skeletons in our closet are no less ghoulish than the rest of the country.
Besides the Marumakkathayam and Kalaripayattu, the one thing that Malayalis have perfected is the art of self-aggrandizement.
I think I should have emphasized the “that” in the above quoted text. I did not say that the caste system was not existent nor that I was not aware of it. I thought the whole point of that paragraph is that I think it’s bad - note the comparison to Apartheid. Maybe you didn’t read my post in its entirety or did some sort of speed reading but you seem to be thin-slicing it. I was merely pointing out that the ramifications were not that severe compared to those in other parts of India where people, to this day, continually lose their lives for their inter-caste “sins”. A whipping is quite different from burning brides.
Also, lower caste women were not allowed to cover their breasts in public places. I suppose the higher caste guys must have been pretty desperate for some skin baring. Wonder what their wives thought about the matter.
Not sure about the Muslim community, but along with the Hindus, the Christians were (and still are) quite content with mimicking the caste system themselves. The high caste converts considered themselves higher than the lower caste converts.
I just heard an anecdote the other day from my father-in-law. A member of their extended family who shall remain unnamed and was considered a tough guy in his time actually drowned some lower caste worker in the paddy field for some minor slight. Of course, he was not brought to justice. Beatings of lower caste people were quite common.
Actually I did emphasise the “that” in “that evident”. A clear case of thin-slicing, if you ask me.
Quite accurate but this is true for a lot of other places/people as well.
I have had several people complain about caste based discrimination in India’s IT sector when it comes to hiring, promotion etc. There is no hierarchy like upper or lower castes but plain favoritism to candidates of the same community.
The caste system predates Christianity and Islam in Kerala. In fact, one could argue that the presence of “significant” numbers of alternate religions in Kerala is because of the raw deal given to large sections of society by the (then) established Hindu order.
And my point was that we should acknowledge the evil that casteism represented and move on, not try to mitigate it by comparisons to other places where it was even worse, like lepers comparing sores.
You’re mixing up social evils! Bride burning had nothing to do with caste, and everything to do with dowry and woman’s place in society.
We should be very wary of bandying accusations of casteism around. Its a very ugly thing to be accused of. What you mention above is plain old favoritism and nepotism, which is a universal phenomenon. Casteism is a whole different, and far more dangerous, beast.
This is a valid argument and you may well be right. Though my point was to convey the fact that the major conflicts we have in society in Kerala is of the inter-religious nature (speaking from a media coverage and scope perspective).
You are having tunnel vision with regard to this post and you keep picking on one or two sentences in it. How am I mitigating casteism? I wrote the post because I am firmly opposed to the caste system in the first place and have often told my non-Indian friends that the caste system is one of the worst forms of racism.
The comparison was done to point out that the situation in Kerala is slightly different from some other parts of India. However, that does not mean that I am ok with it nor am I saying that the effect of it is insignifcant. Pray tell, why can’t I do this comparison? This is not self-aggrandizement as your clever little detour makes it out to be, nor does it imply that I am proud of the still existing casteism in Kerala. It is after observing the attitude of my own extended family towards lower (I abhor this adjective) caste people over the course of the years, that I have come to this conclusion. I also have seen many people I knew as a child, who were of the so-called lower caste, become extremely successful in life. Maybe you have a different experience.
Of course, I will attribute this argumentative discussion to the problem of communication - both in my ability to convey this point and in yours to comprehend.
Granted, that was not the best example to use here but your statement is not entirely true either. There have indeed been (many) instances of killings of brides (and grooms) because of inter-caste marriages. This is what I implied; not the bride burning due to dowry issues - a whole separate blog entry. Entire villages have been burnt because of inter-caste issues.
i am a nair too…. for the longest time, i had some peripheral knowledge that this was just south of the brahmins in the pecking order and so assumed it meant we were kshatriyas…
since i couldn’t care less, i never bothered to delve much into it…
But recently in a casual conversation, a knowledgable someone insisted the Nairs were actually Shudras.
This was somewhat interesting in that somehow Nairs have pepetrated the impression that they are higher caste (possibly because they were warriors)?.
FYI… this person mentioned that kshatriyas in Kerala are actually the Varmas who are related to the Maharajah.
It is all muddied up in Kerala because apparently Nair families also had the habit of taking Namboodiri husbands…who happen to be brahmins. Apparently these guys had a good time and even had many wives. they would just land up and screw, eat and move on…i shouldn’t be so disrespectful to my great gramps.
Ah, those were the times, I guess. When I was in China, I was told of a tribe in a southern province (I think it was Yunnan) where the women live in and own their huts whereas the men go on a rotation basis across the different huts, procreating and screwing away. Both sexes had it good.
That’s funny because I could have sworn that I have seen you,in a few choice moments, ballet leap across living rooms in your whitey tighties, wildly swinging your scotch bottle. If that ain’t Kalarippayattu a la Anup, I don’t know what is.
like rajputs of north india and samurais of japan nairs were great warriors,for their self pride they fought until their death.kalaripayattu the perfect martial art belongs to them.they were rulers and warriors ,that is ksatryia duties.almost all royal families of kerala comes from them.low subcasts did servent works to brahmin and nair houses(to avoid untouchability they got the promation as nairs).they followed matriarchal system,power goes to nephews(sisters children) not their sons.in namboothiri brahmins only the elder can marry from their cast all others are marrying from nairs and their children belongs to nair casts
Rags, message above, i am afraid is a ‘duplicate’ nair. It shows. Faking names is alright, but words reveal. Nairs are a people more sinned against than sinning. The Europeans, later the Christians, their one time allies, painted the Nairs black. For they had fought them hard. As for the Nampoothiris they were perhaps the first colonialists.
Last the Nairs were the kings of Kerala, read any history book on Kerala. Muslims were always with the ‘Nair Pada’ in fighting the white invaders. How there is no Hindu - Muslim problem in Kerala as elsewhere. Though it is now beginning due to constant propaganda.
Yes! How did you guess?
For the record my real name is Cherian Mathai Rehman
have’nt come across a dupicate yet….
This is how the definition of Caste existed in India.
Brahmins = Priests or scholars
Kshatriyas = Rulers, Warriors or Administrative officers
Vaishyas = traders
shudras = labourers,
and finally there was another section which belonged to the lowest in the hierarchy … The untouchables which later came to be known as Dalits or Harijans.
Many among the dalits got converted to Christianity (Syrian, Latin, Protestants …etc). Many Brahmins and kshatriyas in northern Kerala (Malabar) got forcefully converted to Islam. Namboothiris entered into Sambandam marriage with only the Kshatriya class. Every Namboothiri Mana or Illam had deeply bonded relation with one Kshatriya family or the other for its protection.
If kalaripayattu is the perfect martial art, how come we don’t see more kalaripayattu experts in the Ultimate Fighting Championships, is it just that they don’t want fame and fortune and would ideally just like to pursue spiritual ascendance?
Check out this site
http://www.nairs.org/
Having been brought up in a nair family , i can never take that we were shudras, why did shudras need to fight ( kalaripaytu) or why would they think of property inheritance ( shudras werent landlords ). It is true that we were the fighter class in kerala, then going by the nomenclature given by Manu, we are kshatriyas. It sure does facinate me to know that we are desendants from the newars of Nepal, if it is so, i would like to make an expedition to the place and discover the authentic form of kathakali et al.
According to the Sacred Scriptures, all outcasts (converts), cross breeds (cohabitation of a Namboothiri woman n a Shudra man) and other lower castes comes under the category of a Chandala. Those of you, who rejects Manusrithi outright would soon attain the status of a Chandala. The holy scriptures including the Vedas, explain very precisely the way to attain MOKSHA. There is absolutely no Caste conversion. Please take a look at my earlier post on October 19th, 2005 for more detailed information on the Caste hierarchy. That is absolutely what it is. You can’t change it according to your needs!
Thinking of the best way to respond to this, I can only come up with some choice words. But I feel it will be futile to retort. Let me just say that I look forward to “attaining the status” of a Chandala. Maybe I will even start a Chandala club.
Why not? One way to solve this whole caste issue would be for everyone to change their surnames to whatever caste they like. I think I’ll change mine to Namboothiri for a while, and maybe look into that whole cross-breeding thing.
I personally feel rantlust is a better, more qualified, state-of-the-art resource than Manusmriti. Is Manusmriti backed up on 24/7 servers, does it allow online access, how much disk space does it have? What is Manusmriti’s bandwidth? Well, boo yah is what I say.
I might bear the last name Iyer (the purest of the brahamins
but I have heard my mom call me a ‘Chandala’ many times. Every time I did something wrong or got into trouble my mom would start the conversation thusly in Tamil “CHANDALA! Why did you do xyz?” and whack! came down the wooden foot-ruler
Hadn’t realized until now that I was part of a breed, but are all these breeds and cross breeds limited to India? What about the rest of world - what breeds do each part of the world fall under?
Obviously the rest of the world falls under the Chandala bracket. And they will be further subdivided into various levels of Chandalas.
My previous post wasn’t indeed a way to bring a kind of abjection to any community in particular. I was just trying to explain what the Holy Scripture says. Whatsoever, majority of the so called “Hindu” society, atleast, should realize the fact that many of the etiquettes and traditions we follow even today, comes from this Sacred Text. In the caste classification, the highest are the Namboothiris(Pottis) and then comes all the other types of Brahmins. For Nairs … Those of your Ancestral work which belonged to the Warrior/Administrative/Ruler class is indeed in the Kshatriya class. However, one cannot deny the fact that many other kind of labourers (shudras) is at present collectively comprised as a part of NSS. Hence, technically saying, all Nairs are not Kshatriyas! … So is with the Brahmins … All present day Brahmins are not real Brahmins! Let me know your comments.
This is all very confusing to me. Earlier, you said that Nairs may be Kshatriyas or Shudras depending on the work they do. And now you say all Brahmins are not real, or as a previous commenter had said, they are duplicates. I would very much like to know how I can recognize a real Brahmin if I run into one on the street or am standing next to one on the bus. What are the distinguishing features? How do I tell the genuine article from a duplicate, triplicate or other multiplicate variety? Please elucidate.
Good question from papi. What I meant by that statement is this. Let us suppose A is a Namboothiri man, B a Shudra woman, then A + B -> C where C would be considered a shudra and not a Brahmin. If it is the other way round, A a Namboothiri woman, B a shudra man, then A + B -> C where C would result as a Chandala. A pure Brahmin would result only when both A and B are Brahmins. Identification of a person standing near you to be a Brahmin or not was more like a kind of question coming from an immatured mind. Many Brahmins claims themselves as Aryans. The easiest way to identify an Aryan is by his looks. Personally, I don’t think a dark complexioned, curly haired, potbellied, dead body eating, hybrid person with a complete ignorance of Sanskrit, Vedas and Manusmriti could be considered a Brahmin. Perhaps this doesn’t include the complete features or qualities for one to be a Brahmin as well!
Thank you - now it is all crystal clear. I should have paid attention to my A, B, C’s in school.
Suppose:
A = Namboothiri man
B = Shudra woman
C = Namboothiri woman
D = Shudra man
By your calculation A + B -> E (a Shudra) and C + D -> F (a Chandala)
Now, what happens if E fornicates with F and produces G? What would be G: A Shudra Chandala or is there even such a classification?
The recent comments clearly illustrate why Indians were good at Math. We figured out all this from the days of Manu.
Ahhh… the light begins to dawn! But a few doubts remain. It’s been a while since I engaged in such enlightened discourse, so bear with me. My morning coffee was brewed by an undoubtedly Chandala-type person, so that could explain why I’m a bit slow getting off the blocks here.
Coming back to my earlier question, you said Nairs could be one of several castes depending on their occupation. Yet Brahminism is determined purely by birth (per the elegant linear equations shown in your previous comment). Why is that? That seems a flaw in the whole system. Also…
Fair enough! (yeah thanks) But are you saying only fair-skinned, straight-haired, washboard-bellied vegetarians can be Brahmins? In the city where I live, there are many who match that description, but they are mostly gay. Does being gay preclude Brahminism?
Can we get off (sorry) the middle-school math, people?? What if A, B, C, D, E, F and G (not to mention others from the alphabet) are all living in a free-love nudist colony? What about the offspring then? Lets break out the quadratic equations and calculus, it’s about time. Geez.
And what about surrogate mothers and anonymous sperm banks and artificial insemination? We got problems here. Lets nail this thing down.
I think we will need some serious statistics for this.
Theorem 1 (Jagan can correct us) : Children of Chandala are always chandala (from NO CASTE CONVERSION axiom and other linear equations)
Theorem 2 From simple probability theory - In the lineage of any given person, the probability that he/she (or one of her ancestors) is the cross product of Chandala and another breed approaches certainity i.e. 1.
Theorem 3: From Theorem 1 and Theorem 2. As time tends to infinity, the entire population tends to Chandala.
Q.E.D. Just like our universe tends to absolute zero, the human breed tends to absolute Chandala. The wonders of the universe!
Wow, it’s no fricking wonder that casteism lives on. Fascinating to read a completely fascist attitude of Brahminism with an elitist disdain for all the rest.
I don’t know how the pure Brahmins are like in the place where Jagan comes from but where I come from, the supposedly pure Brahmins (meaning they have similar attitudes) may not be dark complexioned but they are certainly curly haired and potbellied.
I guess you missed the last sentence of my previous post. And concerning the question of Nairs, I would say you got me wrong again. Initially itself, I said there is no Caste conversion. A person from the Chandala category joining the warriors or performing a pooja at his home won’t upgrade him to a Nair or a Brahmin. It is 100% decided upon birth. Perhaps this Chandala soul has a chance to live a Spiritual and moral life this time (by obeying the scriptures), and consequently getting a higher birth in the next. What is the point in just hanging a murderer? .. That disrupts his entire path to MOKSHA. Hence, he got to take another body to live a good life again. So is the Caste system, with different priority at different levels. Don’t worry … live a good life this time!. Debating ignorantly won’t save anyone at the time of their death. I am afraid there is a reasonable presence of many Catholic missionary trained fanatics (chandalas) in this forum to scorn the Sacred Manusmrithi!
Hmm… you do bring up a new possibility. Manu-smriti dates from the 1st centruy BC but we have had humans at least from 5000 BC (I decided to go with the “Intelligent Design” theory here — for no apparent reason) and by your theorems, most of the human breed might have been Chandalas by the time Manu-smriti was written. Does this mean (horror of horrors) Manu himself was a Chandala? (I am assuming here that Manu also lived around the 1st century BC despite the fact that he is considered the forefather of all human race.)
I am not certain about when the ManuSmrithi was written, rather I don’t care for the historic authenticity of it. The contents of the book is just grotesque! There is no better way to prove that all human beings are born unequal. It might be painful for some to accept this fact, but if you think over it, that is absolutely the eternal truth. How can all be born equal? Having said that, all chandalas, shudras, Kshatriyas, Vaishyas and Brahmins have this human birth for the purpose of attaining MOKSHA in one or more rebirths. A Brahmin( or other high castes) could be degraded to a Chandala status as well (only exception of Caste change) depending upon his life style.
Save the ignoramus from what exactly? Hopefully from being reborn as a grandstanding, intolerant hack.
Mr. Pot meet Mr. Kettle. Apparently, it is a brainwashing crime to get a fine education with them Jesuit dudes. Funny thing though, I don’t recall the scholarly Namboothiris running their own schools for the education betterment of people of all religious hues. And they historically had a headstart in the education scene.
That’s because they can’t teach anyone who are not pure Brahmins. I guess you haven’t read your Manu-smriti yet. Get with the program, dude.
Therein lies my dilemma! The things that make a good life for me would be frowned upon in the Sacred Manusmriti, and if giving up all that is what would get me an “upgrade” (Manusmriti seems to be modelled on Microsoft) to a pot-bellied vegetarian in my next birth (whoopeee!), I think I’ll pass.
With this kind of morality, no wonder the British kicked our ass.
That’s my point, my cannot-get-into-Brahmin-school friend! : )
You see papi, there were only so many Kshatriyas to fight our wars with these European colonists. Everybody else checked off the “not my job” box.
John .. I think you got a good point there. The Gurukulams didn’t have the policy of accepting Chandalas. As per tradition, a school or a Vidya alayam should be pure and meat eating was considered absolutely impure. How can then a Chandala or any other meat eating person be admitted to such a school? This is just one reason. … Would any Catholic missionary or NSS school admit kids out of their defined rules. If so, there is a common platform for argument!
So a vidyalayam which should be an institution dealing primarily with ideas is more concerned with the superficial “purity” of diet, and not with the poisonous idea of denying the vast majority of society access to learning. Nice!
Besides, as vinod so astutely pointed out, the Manusmriti algorithm pretty much states that in a few generations, everyone will tend to be a Chandala. The only way to maintain purity would be total inbreeding. Hmmm… it’s all beginning to make sense now.
papi .. you tend to miss sentences from me every now n then. I said explicitly that was just one reason. why don’t you accept the fact that in those days each caste performed their own ancestral work, and hence used to study only those lessons pertaining to their living. Nobody was interested to study Vedas or Upanishads. Moreover, Vedas n other sacred texts did not belong to the lower castes.
That idyllic picture of each caste happily toiling away at their chosen profession almost brought a tear to my eye, till my nose caught the unmistakeable stench of bullshit.
We’re not talking merely about Vedas and Upanishads, but also language (reading and writing), math, science, and medicine. Any intellectual skill, to be precise. It’s not that people were not interested in learning these, or did not have the aptitude, but that they were forced to keep toiling in their ancestral professions with no hope of advancement. In any free society, people gravitate towards the professions of their aptitude (by and large). The more intellectually adept ones move to the professions which demand those skills, the ones who are skilled workers move to professions which require that, and so on. Society as a whole progresses from this movement, since we don’t want a skilled physician or surgeon living out his life as a menial laborer. The evil of casteism was that it destroyed this freedom, and it set Indian society back by centuries. I don’t know how old you are, jagan, nor do I care to know, but it’s been really eye-opening that there are still people out there who are willling to defend this monstrous and evil creation.
To add to papi’s point, I think India wouldn’t be where it is today if it had not been for the fact that the casteism is at least officially outlawed and everyone has access to proper education. Unfortunately, a significant number of people still cling to the anachronistic viewpoints of people like Jagan.
Like I said at the beginning of this new thread of comments, it’s futile to react to extreme viewpoints such as this. Nevertheless, it has been an entertaining discussion today. Now it’s time to head out to eat some “dead bodies” with some fellow Chandalas. The potbelly is craving.
I was born into a very pure brahmin family (as pure as Amul ghee) but then I married outside my caste and became a Chandala. Now I am a vegetarian for the last 6 years. Is there any hope for me to become a pure brahmin again? Will it help if I do a few yagnas with very pure ghee? Should the priest for the yagnas be a Namboothri or a Iyengar. Please advise. I am very immatured in these matters but would like to die a pure brahmin and I am afraid I do not have very long to live. Thank you for your kindness.
At the risk of pontificating - Jagan, there is much in scriptures, tradition and the world in general that can be interpreted to be both relevant and admirable. And some of it not. A person’s dharma ought to be to try and discern between these. It can be argued that none of us do a good job of it, but a Chandala is the one who stops trying. Good luck.
Is the caste system only laid out in the Manusmriti, or in the Vedas too? I mean, is it one of the basic tenets of Hinduism? And if it is, isn’t the fact that caste barriers are being brought down (slowly in some cases), an upending of the religion itself? Now if you’re a good person, what happens when you die? Do you go straight to heaven, since you don’t have a caste ladder to go up? What do they teach, if there’s a school where Hindus can go and learn how to be a good Hindu?
And as far as beliefs go, is going up a caste ladder more or less believable than the concept of heaven and hell? Maybe unfair, but I’ve heard Christian preachers say unless you believe in Jesus Christ, you’re going to hell, even if you’re good in every other way. That’s kind of unfair too. I don’t know what exactly the Bible says in this regard, so some of the Bible experts here can shed some light on this. I think we’ve talked about this, but I forget what the conclusion was.
So according to a Hindu casteist fanatic, you can be a Dalit good person, and go up the ladder, continue to be good, and eventually hit heaven. According to a Christian fanatic, you can’t be good in the eyes of God, unless you believe in JC. Atleast Islam doesn’t spell out you have to believe in such and such a God, just God, but a poster of Elvis would be a no no.
At the end of it all, it’s all about making people not go around killing your own kind, and keeping people in their places..but I still pray. As Ventura said, religion is also a crutch for weak people, and therefore I pray.
But the caste system means you’re screwed in this life as a lower caste person, if you were bad in your previous lives, unlike in the other two mentioned religions where you’re just screwed when you die if you’re bad in this life, which may or may not be true. So the caste system is less preferable, to me at least, even though it might mean an eternity in hell as the alternative.
I’m not an expert on Hinduism - so take all the following with a huge grain of salt. But I believe that the varnashrama dharma is pretty much laid out in the Vedas. However, there are only four varnas (castes) - the Chandala concept seems to be a Manu creation (there is a very interesting evolutionary connection here, more in a separate blog). It is only the Chandala who is outside the whole system, so to speak. In other words any member of the other varnas has a chance of direct Moksha, it is only the Chandalas who need at least one extra step.
By all accounts, Gandhi believed in the caste system too (in the Vedic sense and not the Manu sense).
As for what it means to be a good Hindu and the upending of the religion, if nothing else, Hinduism has an embarrasment of riches with regards to philosophies and interpretation. It will, as has always been the case, morph and be relevant for generations to come. Maybe wishful thinking on my part, it is only the ideas that are stuck in the past which will fade into irrelevance.
I guess comparative religion cannot be accomplished in a single blog comment but its hard to talk about heaven and hell, God and compare them to moksha and brahman. They have to be understood on their own terms. You can have a pretty inclusive interpretation of salvation through JC (for e.g. in how the Bible justifies the salvation of Abraham through faith even though he predated JC) or you can have an exclusive interpretation. Many Christian scholars would consider heaven just a condition of being with God and hell as the opposite. Of course, there is the concept of purgatory in Catholicism and all kinds of levels of heaven in Mormonism. So you get your pick
Further research reveals the above assumption I made to be nonsense. My apologies. For the fellow “immatured” minds here, Manu is the first man, the first king. He is also considered the author of the Manu-smriti (the current form of which–undoubtedly put in writing by Brahmin scholars–dates from the 1st century BC as I stated before). A “day” in the life of the God Brahma is divided into 14 periods called the Manvantaras each of which lasts for slightly more than 300 million human years. Every alternate Manvanatara, a new world is created and thus a new Manu.
Umm… aren’t the Harijans considered to be outside the whole system too?
This is not an apple-to-apple comparison. The other religions you are referring to don’t believe in reincarnation.
My understanding is that the ‘untouchables’ were technically outside the four castes, making them Chandalas. Hence there is some rationale in Gandhi believing in the Vedic caste system but not in Chandalas. The wikipedia article (with the usual caveats) bears this out, though it also states that there is lack of clarity in whether the lowest Shudra castes and untouchables could be easily differentiated.
The Chandalas or Caṇḍālas came about (as was pointed out earlier) as result of the union between a Brahmin woman and a Shudra man. They joined the other “untouchables.” Expanding further, not all untouchables are Chandalas.
When the Aryans invaded India around 1500 BC, they brought with them a three layer society (priests, warriors and commoners). There, they met the dark-skinned Dasas (that included earlier immigrants from Persia) and initially put them in the fourth class of Shudras.
The meaning of the Sanskrit word Varna as used by the Aryans seem to refer to (skin) color. The “top” three classes were considered to be “twice-born” (male members underwent an initiation ceremony during their childhood to be “born again”). Some Shudras were excluded from any physical contact with the “twice-born” classes. These were those who had to do menial labor such as washing, fishing, sweeping, cremating, etc. Eventually these Shudras came to be called the untouchables or the Panchama (fifth) category people. The Chandala concept came later, as vinod pointed out, with the Manu-smriti.
The Varna concept was outlined in the Rigveda — the first of the Vedas (~1000 BC).
All the above information was gleaned from my digging in some books I have and the Britannica Encyclopedia. I am in no way an expert in my own religion. My grandfather taught me a bunch of this stuff when I was very young but only now is some of it coming back.
The Britannica also has entries for “Christian caste” and “Islamic caste.” These refer to the caste system practiced by the Christians and Muslims in India. These were based on the (Hindu) caste membership at the time of conversion. This is news to me. An offline conversation with a fellow Rantluster also shed light on this a bit. He said that the Christians in Kerala also look down upon the Untouchables. Anyone care to expand on this?
As for vinod’s comment:
Is there a difference apart from the fact that Chandalas were introduced in the Manu-smriti?
Well, being from the Christian community, I can vouch for the fact that Christians still maintain a lot of the caste distinctions - even though it may not be seen in such a formal manner any more.
In a sense as far as the Rig Veda was considered, the top three classes were ‘equal’ in that they were twice born (I actually had some confusion about Sudra, for some reason I thought they were too, but I guess not).
Gandhi may attempted to play up this concept of equality and resolved to get rid of untouchability (who would have been for the most part Chandalas) which he would have viewed as a non Vedic concept. Perhaps he could have done better. Besides, as far as I know, the Vedas did not prescribe the various forms of death and dismemberment that the Manu smriti did when it came to the slightest perceived lower cast offense.
This forum is really on fire… Great Job guys!. I am afraid there is a lot of live spirit that I missed from the last few postings.
I would advise you to do a thorough check on your knowledge about Indian History prior to the arrival of the foreign missionaries, mughal invaders and nasty colonizers. Technically, what all of them did to our Native land was just plundering. There is clear evidence that even many of the native people, especially from one community, provided a favourable atmosphere to such barbarians. Hence, what right do they have to speak about Indian Caste system? … India was so prosperous, rich and peaceful until their times. Those who are against the Native traditions of this great nation would tend to make us question their lineage and motive of such an intention.
It is not my viewpoint, but rather the truth. Prove it to me otherwise!
I was of the belief that there is no Caste system among the Converted low Castes. If not, Please explain why do you still practise the Caste system among your own folks? .. I am sure Vatican is not going to tolerate that.
Let me just state that you have several facts wrong - no point attempting to disabuse you of those notions. And I don’t care what the Vatican tolerates or not.
vinod … There is nothing wrong if you correct me, in case I am wrong. I am saying what I read or came to know from everyday life. There is no abuse to anyone here. Just a place to discuss the past of our ancestors and what they actually did. So, don’t be offended! I said “Vatican” because that is your most Holy place (since your a christian and said about Caste in Christianity). I am not sure if the pope would support Indian Christians to practise Casteism inside their religion.
Umm. . . This applies only to the Roman Catholic Church. A lot of Indian Christians are not Catholics.
I thought there is no division among Christians. Majority of the so called “Indian christians” are catholics, perhaps all baptized by the colonizers. I think India was colonized mainly by the Vatican followers (Portugese, French, dutch n British). The English have a good number of protestants as well. Literally, Christians anywhere are being considered as Catholics. Hence, these converted guys should be following the same policy as well.
I don’t know where you get your facts from but this is such rubbish.
There are a ton of different Christian denominations of which the Roman Catholic Church is but one (albeit a major one). The pope is the figurehead of the Catholic church and so no other Christian denomination consider him their leader. Christianity in Kerala did not first arrive with the Europeans but with St Thomas arriving on the shores of Kerala in the first century AD. Hopefully this will have enlightened your knowledge a little about Christianity in India because it is evident that you are rather ignorant about it.
Refer JPhilips post above.
Yaa Right !!!. Christianity in India arrived with the Portugese. Don’t tell your story of St.Thomas to any christian outside India.
Yes on reference to the above post, I totally agree with anupcs that you have no idea with what you’re talking about.
Ok now I know you have absolutely no clue of history. BTW, it may interest you to know that in Kerala, many Hindus eat beef and I’m waiting for your lecture that it is impossible only because you say so.
Jphilips:Ok now I know you have absolutely no clue of history. BTW, it may interest you to know that in Kerala, many Hindus eat beef and I’m waiting for your lecture that it is impossible only because you say so.
Certainly, I don’t know about fabricated history by the proselytizing missionaries. Here, I am talking about how Christianity reached India. It was only Islam that came through the Arabian traders much before the Mughal Invasion. I would suggest you check your genuine sources first, before terming as “Ignorant”.
Manusmrithi and other Sacred Scriptures preach fully the policy of Ahimsa. I am aware of the fact that Hindus eat beef in kerala and elsewhere. In kerala, it is more prominent because of the high population of other communities as well. Whether it is beef or frog is all the same to me, as both of them are just dead bodies. Those who eat it are certainly dead body eaters. This reminds me of the Chandala definition again. I am afraid India would soon become a land of majority Chandalas.
Nobody’s disputing that the bad, bad foreign invaders plundered India. What does that have to do with casteism?
I have no patience with innuendo. If you want to say something, come right out and say it. Which community are you talking about, and what help to the invaders?
The time honored tradition of attacking the person instead of the argument. The lineage or motives of a person are unimportant if what he or she says is correct. But it looks like whenever anything makes you uncomfortable, you fall back on the strategy of questioning someone’s lineage or some community’s patriotism, instead of addressing the issue.
Patriotism is not something that is manifested in just resisting a foreign invader. It is also about showing respect and fairness towards your fellow countrymen even in the absence of any external threat. In that light, the people who perpetrated the caste system, subjugated their own countrymen, and continue to defend the indefensible, are the real traitors.
Please don’t kid yourself, or try to elevate your abhorrent views to a plane where they don’t belong. Your comments are abusive and insulting to the generations of people who have suffered from casteism, and all who strive to free society from it. By trivializing its impact on Indian society, and even trying to glorify it, you are showing the shallowness of your own character. No amount of quoting the scriptures is going to change that. Speaking for myself, responding to your comments is about as enjoyable as an ingrown toe-nail, but I’m doing it because I don’t want neutral readers who visit this site to go away with the impression that people like you are anything but a very small, very vile minority in Indian society.
Yes I am talking about Christianity reaching India too and am calling you an ignoramus. There is no false history because for one thing the Portuguese landing at the beaches of Calicut were shocked to find that Christians were already roaming around and asking them “Waddup dude?” You’re confusing the concepts of Christianity with Catholicism and until you open your mind and educate yourself, you’ll continue to be the ignoramus that you are. You may have very jingoistic opinions of the religion you follow but don’t try and teach me the history of my own because you’re out of your league.
Oh ho, so now it is the fault of Christians and Muslims that Kerala Hindus eat beef? Have you considered the possibility that Kerala Hindus take great pleasure in eating very tasty dead bodies and did not need anyone to force feed them?
Be afraid, be very afraid.
You’ve spoken for me too
but I’m doing it because I don’t want neutral readers who visit this site to go away with the impression that people like you are anything but a very small, very vile minority in Indian society.
A quite good intensity of uncertainty rests in your mind. If you belong to one of those from the Vatican army, I would like to remind you that India is certainly not your destination. Caste system is Native to India and not imported from Vatican or middle east. I don’t understand why you have to scorn the prehistoric Native customs and traditions. Are you being sponsored by someone to do this? As far as the Indian Natives are concerned, there is explicitly no need for an explanation of what Caste System means. Natives don’t believe in theory created at Vatican or Bethlehem.
Casteism is far better than colonization and forced conversions.
OK … Do you expect non-christians to accept BIBLE doctrines? That is not secularism.
Another innovation of a missionary backed story.
There is nothing like your history. If at all there is so, I am sure it won’t surpass 19th Century. What right do you have then to speak ill about Casteism?
Just your imagination. Community is not essentially a religion.
Seriously, I am.
As the writer of the original post, I feel that the discussion is going off on a different tangent than I ever envisioned when I wrote this. While a discussion of the caste system was appropriate for this post, a war of words about religion itself was not.
My original intention was to point out some of the “facts” mentioned about the Nairs in the Wikipedia entry and to renounce the caste system as an evil thing. That has definitely been achieved in the subsequent discussions.
Before this devolves into a shouting match on religion, I am closing this post to future comments. It’s been an interesting ride so far. 76 comments for a post is just too much.
Well it’s been six months and I am re-opening this for comments due to the continuing popularity of the post (possibly viral and due to favorable search results) in case people have some fresh ideas to convey.
Anoop could you please say the malayalam word for Praying Mantis… err… is it ‘ Malathozhuvan ‘
Er, i don’t know if anyone has mentioned this, but it seems like people are still confused as to whether or not Nairs are kshatriya or shudra. Here’s the thing - there is evidence to support that in ancient times caste was just a categorization for what you did, not state of birth. However, at the time of the influx of the Namboohiris into Kerala, CASTE did NOT mean what you did. Someone who was a warrior was not necessarily a Kshatriya. When the Namboothiris came to Kerala, they were (and still are) the most orthodox, pollution conscious Brahmins in all of India. So, they deemed that since it was Kali Yuga, a time of declining morality, there were no kshatriyas. In fact, they deemed that all other people in Kerala were Shudras, INCLUDING OTHER BRAHMINS.
Ofcourse there’s alot of dispute about this, considering the fact that Nairs were held in such esteem and were so powerful before the Namboodhiris and would have definitely been considered Kshatriyas in any other part of India. Also, there is a question whether human Brahmins had the authority to demote the Nairs, since Nairs are, according to Indian legends, Nagas, cousins of the Asuras, Devas, and Supargas. Legends say that the Nagas/Nairs threw away their sacred cords and fled the wrath of Parashurama when he destroyed the ksatriya clans, which may be the reason why most Nairs do not undergoe the investiture ceremony for the sacred cord that is supposed to be given to all twice born Hindus.
The problem is in the interpretation of the legends - and i’m still looking this up. Either Nairs are no longer kshatriya (because we’re in Kali Yuga, the Nambhoodiris divested us of it, or simply because they threw away their sacred cords) or …..and this is pretty weird and debatable, i admit …..or Nairs are the ONLY true kshatriya clan in India according to the “by birth” view of caste. Why? Because we’re Nagas, and we survived the legendary destruction of all kshatriyas.
Caste is not based on what Namboothiris say or decide, eventhough Namboothiris were/are one of the most noble race of Kerala. Please take a look at post 17 by me above. Not all Nairs in kerala today are Kshatriyas though, but certainly some are.
Apparently, it was based on what the Namboothiris said historically speaking because that’s what happened - the history of Nairs in kerala is one of power (Nairs were the dominant cast in Kerala at the time) until the coming of the Namboodhiris - at which point everyone took a back seat. Stating that Nomboothiris are one of the most noble races of Kerala…. i have no idea where you came up with that. IF we are talking in generalities, then this statement of nobility can certainly be disputed, as would be easily ascertained after reading the works of Lalithambika Antherjanam. Certainly they are the most orthodox and rigidly conservative of Indian Brahmins, but that certainly does not magically transmit “nobility.” I took a look at post 17, which really didn’t say much - i suggest you reread post 80 which is by me. It seems to be a little more forthcoming than your taciturn mumbling.
The state of Nairs today is one of total confusion as to their caste, much less their history, which is quite exciting and interesting. Its a sad state of affairs when people are all agog over the knights of the round table, or the samurai of japan, but have never heard of the Nairs of Kerala. Imagine a race of dragons that became human, warrior princes who fought fiercely with whip-blades (urumi), and practice the ancient art of kalaripayat, progenitor of kung fu (via Bodhidharma), filled with secret knowledge of pressure points (marmas) that could kill at a touch! That’s a story that every kid would love to hear, much less a Nair - and sadly, as a nair myself, i’ve never heard of this until a couple of months ago.
Well, either being ignorant or pretending to be so doesn’t alter the truth of the past or the present. Perhaps you should make an attempt to sit with your grand folks to find out the real situation that existed in Kerala. In addition, if Namboothiris were/are not the noble race of Kerala, I would be tempted myself to question you with the history of Sambandam and perhaps all the low caste converted community blatantly claiming their forefathers to be Namboothiris. Now does it make sense?
During my travel in America, I meet many Indian in motel. Very nice peeple, very friendly. I ask them about caste and they say only stupid, backward Indian believe in it now. Is true? Yas?
In Kazhakistan, only two caste - prostitute and customer. Very simple. Yas.
Borat/Yas, Perhaps the Indians whom you met at the motels were the so called ‘low castes’ or the converted tribes. If you are still curious to know whether Caste system exists in India or not, please don’t hesitate to visit any Indian matrimony sites (shaadi.com, bharathmatrimony.com…etc). Another good idea would be to keep yourself updated with some of the prominent Indian dailies. I bet most of them would have one caste disdaining article or incident atleast twice in a week. Foreign acolytes with their fellow followers in Indian exploits every situation they can.
Jagan, what exactly are you saying?
“Perhaps you should make an attempt to sit with your grand folks to find out the real situation that existed in Kerala.”
- Done that.
“In addition, if Namboothiris were/are not the noble race of Kerala, I would be tempted myself to question you with the history of Sambandam and perhaps all the low caste converted community blatantly claiming their forefathers to be Namboothiris. Now does it make sense?”
Please take an English course, because your statements are confusing and astonishingly unclear. You were the one who claimed that “Namboothiris were/are one of the most noble race of Kerala.” I stated that they were not, and backed it up. Are you with me? You made a statement, i countered it. And then you countered it by being “tempted” to question me on Kerala history. Do you see how your “response” was a question? A question that does not back up your claim that Namboothiris are the “noblest” race?
I think it would help everyone if you just simply outlined your stance. Then we could all describe in detail how A) unclear you are with coming to a point or making an argument and B)how much we disagree or agree with your point.
Jagan.
“Caste is not based on what Namboothiris say or decide”
I’d say there are several ways of coming up with what caste you are. 1) tradition 2) genetics 3) profession.
Since hinduism is a living religion that is not only influenced by ancient holy scriptures (sruti), but by secondary layers of scriptures (smriti) and by the authority of living revelation (holy men, brahmins, etc) there can be some confusion depending on how your particular faith is decided.
For example, if you follow the authority of the Brahmin in Kerala, Nairs would be Sudra. If you followed what one sloka of the Vedas say (”"I am a bard, my father is a physician, my mother’s job is to grind the corn.” - Rg Veda 9.112.3) then your varna is whatever you do (or whatever you your inclinations and character leans towards), rather than hereditary. Therefore, i find it hard to understand why you think caste conversion cannot happen, like you stated in Post 21
>>Please take an English course, because your statements are confusing and astonishingly unclear.
I am not amazed to know that my sentences above would remain ill-defined to you for all your life. Indeed I am very glad you atleast made an attempt to find out the situation that existed in Kerala from your grandparents. Cool beans!!! All that I could say at the moment is “There is no excuse for ignorance and pretension”. My statements have nothing to do with the abjection of any race or caste or religion. Perhaps you should also understand that I am not trying to argue with anyone here.
>>Therefore, i find it hard to understand why you think caste conversion cannot happen, like you stated in Post 21
Biju, Certain notions in this world (especially pre historic traditions) would remain as it is. No, there is absolutely no caste conversion, eventhough there is nothing wrong in making up imaginations. I apologize, but that is how it is. If you follow something, you’ll have to just abide by the rules.
oh, and i might add, having read some of your other posts dealing with manusmrti, that this quote comes from the Vedas, a shrti txt, which supercedes the laws of manu.
You are very welcome to edit Manusmriti if you want, but I wonder how many native Indian people would be there to accept your changes. Perhaps you may get an oustanding support from the so called “converted folks”.
There is no point in talking about the four varnas. As some of you woule be aware, the word Brahmana means knower of Brahman(One with realization). Very few now a days. Kshatriya - Man with injury in his body ( Protectors of dharma) Some valiant soldiers and the honest law enforcement personnel are kind of Kshatryas. Vyshya - Who earns money and distibutes it to the needy. KShudra - Those doing menial labour . A lot of them. I believe our society has so changed that most of us have more than one of the above qulaities. Manu smriti can be changed just for the reason that it is smriti ( Laws that change according the age the society is living in) unlike Shruti ( Upanishads). Most of us are to the most part inferior Vyshyas as our occupation would indicate( working for money for our own families)
I have seen lot of brahmin ( born to brahmin parents) girls dating other caste boys in IT city Bangalore. Jagan Manu Smriti may be right for the social set-up of the past. You can not get that Manu Smriti back in effect in today’s society
Why not talk about what would be acceptable to most people? As some body pointed out, a few generation from now, the way our society is headed for, it is going to be farer from Manu Smriti’s classification. I go with “No moksha till every one of my countrymen gets it” of Vivekananda and I personally want to be in brother-hood with well meaning Brahmins and Christians alike.
>>I have seen lot of brahmin ( born to brahmin parents) girls dating other caste boys in IT city Bangalore.
Let them date, but what they don’t realize is that their offsprings would attain Chandala status. Well, I am not arguing about how many people would consider my view about this. However, that is how it used to be in the history of this nation. I would prefer to seek/follow the traditions of my native land rather than importing morales from the west or middle east.
For Moksha, I go with the Shruti passage,
One who sees that one in all is freed from re-birth. One that doesn’t goes from birth to birth
-Isha Upanishad
I would ’say’ this out since there would be lot of takers for this. I would keep it to myself if I am not sure how many people would take it.
The wise would not confuse the oridinary people by his words - Bagavad Gita
>>The wise would not confuse the oridinary people by his words - Bagavad Gita
Not everybody in this thread follows Gita. Try to put something from other Holy books as well, eventhough those verses might not belong to Indian history.
Nairs are not Shudra. If you see history, they were warrier class peoples.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nair
the site seems a good explanation…
if some brahmins said nair is shudra, just to get upperhand in older period, will not make nair a shudra…nair well belong to kshatria as all warrier type people can belong to the same only. May be sometimes one can argue that all nairs may not come in it..see nairs contain many surnames as pillai, menon, nambiar, kurup, mannadiar etc…..u may heard about Othenakurup, ettuvittil pillai, veluthambi etc…in fact nairs have very strong tradition and culture .. also nairs are not belonging to the aryan, but to dravidian…in my knowledge, the four class system is more applicable to aryans as they made it..it is not much applicable to south india. I feel one should not show the courage to call nair as shudra…nair will be fit in kshatria only….they are upper class people in kerala
b t b..what kshatria or shudra…it is the most bad thing if one is calling other a lowergrade man only because he belongs to a reserved community….it is one’s thoughts and deeds make him kshatria or shudra…pl. don, t believe in the caste system…..
I am afraid viswanathan is one of those missionary sponsored fanatic uttering mere rubbish about the native tradition of this great land. Let him sell his ideas abroad, especially in Vatican or somalia. you stress me out man. Native people of India don’t appreciate your pinko leftie hand-wringing human-rights proselytism
Excellent blog.One of the greatest poetess, story writer and novelists in Kerala is Lalithambika Antherjanam who can be called and a literary historian and her writings are a heavily debated topic. Because of her earnest effort today women are largely educated and daughters are thought to be as prized as sons. Kerala has been praised for its treatment of women because of characteristics such as these. However, Lalithambika Antherjanam’s writing speaks to some of the problems for Malayali women especially namboodiri women were often forced into seclusion in their homes, especially during adolescence. If they went out they would have to cover themselves. Even among other castes, the place of women in Kerala society is questioned. While women have had the opportunity to be educated for many years in Kerala, this education has not necessarily meant an elevated position in society Kerala society. Her independent -view and their realistic style make them part of a broader phenomenon of modernity through which, writers and thinkers around the world have tried to move away from the traditional cultural paradigms into the certainties of the age of the scientific temper. Although she was part of the most powerful priest cum landlord Brahmin caste of Kerala, her life-work was the exposure and destruction of the hypocrisy, violence and injustice with which women were treated in Namboodiri society. She was not allowed to study in school, and could only glean scraps of information about the outside world through male relatives who were kind enough to tell her about current affairs. “The stories and the autobiographical fragments in this collection are engaged and critical accounts of life in Namboodiri households. Set in the thirties, forties and fifties, these texts bring alive the world into which Lalithambika Antherjanam (1909-1985) was born. They record in vivid detail the physical incarceration, the mental agony and the terrorizing disciplinary holds of rituals of purity with an intimacy that can only come from one who writes from experience. Yet these stories are also accounts of individual women’s protests, and these range from the ones that shake the polity, to ones that subtly re-order the immediate world. Surprisingly little known outside Kerala, her work provides invaluable insight into the little documented social reform and nationalist movements of Kerala. The introduction places the author and her work in the cultural history of Kerala.” Her stories throb with the tormented reality of the Namboodiri illam or household: unbearable social restriction, rigid sexual mores, lives ruled by the maintenance of ritual purity, the extreme oppression of widows.
bhattathiri….duuuuude, what are you trying to say my friend?